another twisted episode!! XD i believe the theory of ciel being the other twin seems to b...

It can neither be confirmed or disproven (It can be disproven more so than proven but still...). The animation proves nothing given that it is riddled with fan service, alterations, and filler, it is not a reliable source (even if it does follow the arc to an extent.) Looking back on those chapters I see no child hiding behind Vincent, or any indication that there was. What is fact is that someone was with Ciel inside the cage, it could be a friend that he pictured with his face representing his innocence.

As for twin, chapter 10 page 16 pretty much throws that out the window. Only one child is there. As for translation error, a really reliable translator confirmed that Madame Red said "nephew" and not "nephews".

Also, the twin theory makes no sense. If Ciel were to have the twin why would the twin need to hide behinds his brothers name? He wouldn't need to. Why? Because, given that Vincent and Rachel are dead, and if the older twin died too the heritage (money, the title of Watch Dog and all of that) would fall to the younger twin. So there would be no need to hide it.

I believe the friend theory more so than the imposter or twin theory. There was this really good Facebook argument over on Mangahere concerning that, and I advise reading that, it made for a good read, and had a hell of a lot of sense too it.

Other than that, I'll ask kindly that we don't get into that theory again. It's caused enough problems here, and other sites as well. I'm just kindly asking. Let's enjoy the chapters as they come, and not worry about that until it happens shall we. Thank you.

No violence, I'll make it short this time :P. If you still want to be persistent about it, I'll just ignore it if I feel it's getting nowhere. But you're kind of giving false information here.

Seriously, nephews was a thing that was pointed out by multiple reliable sources (japanese), and I even got to check it out myself and explained each kanjis, need I copy paste it again since maybe you missed it in my mess? I even got a hard time finding it again so xD.

Also, link me that "really reliable translator", I'm interested since I highly doubt even I could mess up that simple of a sentence. You can't even say for sure it's singular unless you precise it in japanese, and I don't see that anywhere, I only see a -tachi!

As for why he would take his brother's name, here's explanations not made by me:
Q. Why does YM pretend to be the other twin? There's just no need/reason/advantage for YM in doing so.
A. There are many speculations as to this question. Judging from YM's line in ch. 92 one possible reason might be that YM had an iferiority complex towards Ciel. He might have thought that everyone would be happier if Ciel survived and not him.
See also:
#490 ( http://forums.blackbutler.net/showth...l=1#post413127)
#555( http://forums.blackbutler.net/showth...l=1#post414976)

But again, nothing confirmed, please don't lash out at me, just pointing out things like you seem to want to do.
--------------
Cope paste of the little explanation of the translation error (it actually makes this post look long, sorry :P):
Raw:
http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/974099kurotwo035.jpg
English internet translation:
http://www.mangago.me/read-manga/kuroshitsuji/an/kuroshitsuji-chapter-10.html/17/

か=ka わ= wa いいii = Kawaii in hiragana.

甥 = oi(nephew) in kanji
っ = doubles the pronunciation of the following consonnant
子= ko(kid) in kanji
oikko

Japanese seem to precise the nephews are kids, alright by me.

達= -tachi in kanji, which means obligatory plural to the word it's attached to.

So she is definetively saying ''kawaii oikko-tachi''. Which Means ''cute nephewS''.

My of the ''My cute nephews'' is the 私(watashi which means ''I'') and の(particle to say it belongs to) that are in the square after that, saying that they were the people she loved. Like, ''Sebastian no neko'' would mean ''Sebastian's cat(s)''. Or ''Watashi no hon desu'' means ''It's/They're my book(s)'' (desu (です in hiragana) is the verb ''to be'' in the present tense). Anyway, I was just saying so maybe you could learn something ;)

My bad, here's the full links for the explanations:
http://forums.blackbutler.net/showthread.php?3122-The-Two-Ciels-Theory&p=413127&viewfull=1#post413127
http://forums.blackbutler.net/showthread.php?3122-The-Two-Ciels-Theory&p=414976&viewfull=1#post414976

Why is it that I feel you are trying to drag me down into the gutter for a fight, Lightasus? I know you aren't trying to but I feel you are pressing a knife to my throat in order to force me into believing this very flawed theory. My feelings aside, let's try to keep this conversation short and calm. (I have a feeling your troll, Mari, might still be around.)

I had to dig through months of posts to find the translation discussion I found about the whole nephews things. I had it explained to me as well to where it makes sense.

Here is one of the posts:
http://her-majestys-watchdog.tumblr.com/post/96635669320/in-the-english-version-chapter-10-madame-red-doesnt

Looking at the official English translations, this person words ring true. Now granted they do have their mistakes, but they do try hard to give an accurate translations. And they are the official English translating team, not some online translators (my respect to the group, but they too have had their mistakes. English is the hardest language in the world, it is plausible to make mistakes on either side.).

And here is another, about the subs on anime-realm: http://her-majestys-watchdog.tumblr.com/post/96635965730/anime-realms-translation-of-ep-8-says-everyone-was

Looking this up, also, it is true. The subs of this site are different than the other ones. (I asked this site a question in regards on how they can tell the difference between plural and singular. I'll have to dig through tons of emails to find it though.)

But in all honesty, it is possible we both could be wrong, as you said, translations are tricky, and as I said, mistakes can happen on either side. The only person to know the truth is Yana. (I know you guys want to believe the translation team can't be wrong, but they aren't perfect. Each translator has a differing opinion on the matter.)

So the translation matter really can't help in the disproving of the theory, or the proving of it.

Another reason is because he was sickly as a child, and didn't think anyone could believe he could run as the Queen's Dog, run his own company, etc, so he took the name instead.

(That came from the blog I linked you to.)

But even they admit the theory is flawed.

I'm not lashing out at you, see trying to keep this peaceful. And I ask that you don't insult me. That last part of your message felt like a stab at my intelligence. (Also, you aren't sure of the translations either, no matter who gave it to you. I might not be so good to be over confident in it.)

I thank you for the links regardless, but I'm going to stick to my belief that the theory is just that, a silly fan theory. So I suppose, you and I will just have to agree to disagree on the matter (I think we can at least agree on that.).

I hope we can now let this go and get back to some delicious fan fawning over new chapters. I heard that Yana is giving us a surprise for when we reach chapter 100. (Start a new post for the 100th chapter surprise. This theory thing is just a joy kill, and a stress giver. Let's take what this person said in advice: Well. I can't find that post at the moment and my eyes are starting to water from staring at the screen to long in the search for it.. but I remember it was a lashing out at us to calm our chiz about the theory, along with a whole rant at the "if it's true it's true, if it's not it's not. Just stop your damn whining about it. 100% of the time a fan theory is unlikely to ever come true", or something like that. My memories vague on it. Sorry, I'm rambling, I'd just really like to move on from this topic.)

---------------------------------------------
While I'm at it (almost forgot to add these:)

And here one damn good comment about it over on MH Facebook page:

"One more thing I MUST clear up:

What is with all you dumbasses seriously believing Ciel is like a twin or a fake Ciel or shit?

Really?

REALLY?

Was it REALLY so hard to understand the innocence VS dark side symbolism inside Ciel? THe two boys were in is FUCKING HEAD. Innocence. Vs. Darkness. Fear. Vs. Determination.
Seriously? I'm just saying. YOU PEOPLE did not understand that?! It's just...ugh...when I see comments like those it really makes me think, "How fucking stupid can you...aghhhh!!! Brain cells dying from moron contamination! AHH!"" quote from (name removed because I don't want the trolls to attack them. You can find the comment over on MH on the facebook comment page. You might have to do some digging though.)

Response to that comment: Thank you so much for having the courage to say what needs to be said in the best fitting tone! I'd never find the words for it, rather explaining how all the details they take as hints do not ultimately make their theory true - sometimes even just through the appliance of common sense. ;) " again the name has been removed in case of trolls.

This is about both the imposter theory and twin theory (only mentioned a little): Man, I have a hunch that our Ciel is an imposter, too many hints, especially at chap 90 and 95
1) At chap 58, Lizzy said when returned, Ciel became shorter (wtf)
2)At chap 91,Ciel said "i'm not worth protecting" , " Not me, not just me but rather "
3)I don't know about you guys but when I saw Ciel in chap 90 page 16, I think this Ciel is the real one. He looks exactly like Vincent and something about his smile make him different than the Ciel I used to."

"Sorry, but there is no such thing as an imposter. Let's start with your points:
1) Lizzy noticed just one panel later that she simply grew and became taller than Ciel. Being kept in such horrible surroundings and underfed probably messed with Ciel's growth process.
2) This is a bit harder to explain. It's obvious that there was another boy with him in this cage that probably kept a completly positive attitude despite everything going awry around him before he was sacrificed in order to summon Sebastian. In Ciel's flashbacks, that boy is always shown with Ciel's face in order to symbolize him as his innocent side which he had to leave behind in order to survive (ch. 95).
3) I can't really refute that since it's your personal opinion. But there are enough points to proof that our Ciel is the real deal.

I) In Madame Red's Cinematic Record and memories, we see that she was there when Ciel was born. He is the only boy mentioned and shown there. This also applies to all flashbacks from Elizabeth and Lord Kelvin. This at least speakes against the twin theory.
II) If Ciel was an imposter, he couldn't possible have flashbacks like in Ch. 28 or 40 where you can clearly see a young Lizzy and his parents as those memories couldn't be his.
III) In Ch. 62, Ciel recognizes Tanaka and Madame Red immediately. If he had never seen them before, that would have been impossible.
That's all I can think of right now, but it should be enough. ^^"

"(Name removed) I dont think they are twin but our Ciel is a poor commoner that for some reasons looks exactly like the real Ciel and being locked in the same cell. In the time they are locked together , they will talk about each other's memories. Another theory is Phantomhive is queen' watch dog and have lots of secret. Maybe they have one Ciel in the light and another in the dark to work together.
And about Madame Red, i think it has some connections to Sebastian. If other Ciel was sacrificed to summon Sebastian, he should have known about his memories and prepare our Ciel to take over his place. Dont you think that the event where Ciel in the same hospital with Tanaka is too much of a COINCIDENCE.

(Name removed) Look at chap 62 page 3, What is Ciel' sacrifice when everything in his body is intact? .
"Revenge on who did this to us" Who is us?
Chap 66 page 8: " Is it nostalgic" " Huh" ???
Man, hints everywhere"

"(Name removed for troll reasons) Let's assume for a moment that they talked about their lives; why would Ciel then remember the exact positions, clothes and facial expressions of three people he never saw before (especially Rachel) during a time where his brain is practically being cooked from high temperature and without a reason to remember it right now unless he has personal relation to it? Or what about Ch. 19 where Ciel remembers the day of his parents' murder - would we really see that from an ego-perspective with lots of details for the background if Ciel was fake? No one talks about his memories and home to that high extent.

Where the discussion left off: " Another theory is Phantomhive is queen' watch dog and have lots of secret. Maybe they have one Ciel in the light and another in the dark to work together." Ciel is still just ten years old at that point and nowhere close having to work for the queen, what with his father still being alive and well, so there is no need or reason to have a double for him already. It would be much more sensible to wait until he's passed puberty in order to find someone who might actually account for an adult version of him.

"If other Ciel was sacrificed to summon Sebastian, he should have known about his memories and prepare our Ciel to take over his place." I'm not entirely sure I understand your logic here. Why would Sebastian have that boy's memories? It's not like he got his soul or anything, the boy was sacrificed to supply the blood needed for the ritual. The demon would then get the soul of whoever he makes a contract with. I doubt those fools knew exactly what they were doing, but that's how such a procedure works.

Meeting his injured former butler in the hospital where his aunt is working is too much of a coincidence? Of course she would make sure that he gets the best treatment while also keeping him close in order to both care for a longtime member of the family as well as to find out what happened.

The price paid in order to cross the river is in this case Ciel's Innocence, something he gave up along with his belief in God even before Sebastian arrived. That already is a guaranty for a ticket to Hell, he could then simply choose whether he wanted to die right now or later. In Ch.54, p.23-24, he clearly makes a distinction between the persona of Ciel and the persona of the Earl of Phantomhive. That's almost, just almost, like a split personality, with "Ciel" representing his pure-hearted self and "Earl of Phantomhive " as the cold-hearted, ruthless person he had to become.

"Revenge on who did this to us" Didn't we already establish that we both believe another boy to be there with him that he cared about a lot? Even though our beliefs on who he is are different; I'm not exactly sure why you brought up that point.

And is it so difficult to imagine that he simply forgot the design of an easter egg he hasn't seen for three years? He honestly has more important stuff to think about."

"(Name removed) i totally agree
I really just think this is all because someone is getting confused in the whole storyline and didnt really pick up on certain details.
thinking way to hard and not understanding
hints all over that ciel's life is a messed up shit storm is all im finding" (-note the same person giving the argument.)

"(Name removed) ... You know what the funny thing is? While I was looking for evidence to disprove this theory, I actually found three hints or details that I can't disclaim that easily - or at least, not yet. And none of them were mentioned here before. I agree totally that Ciel has just gone through way too much already and that this probably messed up his mind, memory and soul, but I can't really ignore the fact that there are still questions left unanswered..."

As said, those conversations can be found over on mangahere's facebook comment page for this manga.

(That's alright, I've screwed up on links too before. Things happen. Let's just move on from this. And sorry for the long post too, I tend to ramble, and I hit my character limit with my previous posts. Sorry, again.)

Aah, but what I am trying to do is not necessarily to make you believe in the theory, I do realize you'll never change your mind, but to correct you when you say things that aren't true, at least to my knowledge.

First things first:
"English is the hardest language in the world"
Uuh...

Anyway,

What the official english translator have decided to translate, I cannot take that as a confirmation. I often read both the official french and english translations, while keeping in mind that the original language is japanese, and my are the experiences different. What they do is to make the reading the most comfortable possible for the reader, so details do get lost in the process. I do believe what happened is that they thought that many nephews made no sense (didn't think of a twin theory and translating is about how you interpret it), so they translated it that way. Now, if you do dig it up and explain to me what I did wrong, which may have had a 10% chance to have happened, I'll just be happy to have learned something.

Of course, you can argue about the possible explanations, it's just that you said it made no sense, so here's people who think otherwise. I don't necessarily everything they say feels right, but opinions are opinions. That's really only what there is to it. I don't really want to argue about yours, so I'll just leave it at that.

I must say, I did believe your theory before I stumbled on this one (well, yours was the only one I ever read about xD). It did make sense, and this is just a nitpick but it makes me think too much of Final Fantasy VII with Cloud's mental nonsense aha. I just read so much mangas and stuff about mentally messed up protagonists and even some with double personnalities, with a dark side, with an innocent side, getting to the rock bottom, it really doesn't feel original anymore.

But really, from the many hints Yana indeed left, the twin theory seems more plausible to me. In the very least, you can't say Yana did it unknowingly, whether it's because that's where the story is going or just to completely mess up with the readers (which seems to go crazy over there in Japan, arguably because of no misleading translations).

I can understand corrections. I get really annoyed when I see a mistake in fact in regards to reviews. I found this one review that said the first season of the anime followed in the first 15 episodes, they got real mad when I pointed it out to them though, and tried to disprove me on it. LOL.

Nah, I don't mind corrections, but when it's in a sort of tone that makes you feel like you are being insulted.. It makes you a little reluctant. Sorry, rambling again.

Anyways, I looked up the word "tachi" in a Japanese to English dictionary, and this is what I found: http://www.kanjijapanese.com/en/dictionary-japanese-english/tachi

and this is for nephew: http://www.japanesedictionary.info/en/dictionary-english-japanese/nephew

I can understand the changing of thought. When I had started out with the manga, and heard of the theory (it took me until the Campania arc to hear of it), at first I thought it might be true, but after talking to a very observant friend of mine (a manga/anime purist to boot who has a good deal of knowledge in the language, and with some good incite), I took a re-read and found that the twin theory, or imposter theory, was not plausible.

Well, I'm just glad we can move past this (and that it ended peacefully this time.. I probably just jinx that..). Lol, hopefully now we can have some fun conversations.

Well, I guess it's hard to not sound rude when trying to correct someone on the internet, writing does put an extra pound to the whole thing. Though you said the last part was insulting your intelligence, you mean the "I was just saying so maybe you could learn something" or before that? If that was it, well it wasn't specifically targeted to you, I was adressing just about anyone and didn't mean to sound rude or anything.

Well you see, trying to find the "tachi" I'm talking about is like asking a dictionnary to translate the plural "s", I don't think that's quite possible. So here's a good source, read the whole thing to understand more about the plural issue (especially "Nouns and Inflection") or just scroll down to the "tachi":
http://www.japaneseprofessor.com/lessons/beginning/nouns-pronouns-and-plurals/

----------------

I'm doing this because think theorizing is fun. Again, I'm not trying to make you believe your theory (it would be quite boring if no one did not), I'm just adressing your "proofs". If you're that allergic to this, you can stop here. And I must say your argumenting is all over the place, so is mine definetively, so this is getting quite confusing x)

I) In Madame Red's Cinematic Record and memories, we see that she was there when Ciel was born. He is the only boy mentioned and shown there. This also applies to all flashbacks from Elizabeth and Lord Kelvin. This at least speakes against the twin theory.

He isn't necessarily the only boy mentionned. It can be interpretated as both "It's a boy/They are boys". You can even think one boy is in Madam Red's arms and the other one laying beside Rachel. I can see how the translator sticked to the singular since it was never mentionned there were more than one, only subtely hinted.
I'll just refer you to this again:
http://www.japaneseprofessor.com/lessons/beginning/nouns-pronouns-and-plurals/

Actually, the other two arguments do not even refer to the twin theory. And what they were adressing to were indeed quite flawed ;)

Anyway, I could just twist this:
I really just think this is all because someone is getting confused in the whole storyline and didnt really pick up on certain details (*cough*translationissues*cough*).
thinking way to hard and not understanding
hints all over that ciel has taken his twin's place is all im finding
So this wasn't quite the greatest argument wasn't it?

Yeah, it's quite difficult to. I know some people who kindly point out plagiarism issue to users on FFN and people still go batty over it. It's easy to misinterpret someone on the web. Yep, that would be the one. It sort of felt like a stab at me, but as you know you can't be too sure.

I see, but the thing that still catches me on that page is "loosely translated", which means is "that the words are not translated literally and we just translate what we understand?!". So it really isn't all that correct, and still leaves the idea either translators could be wrong.

-----------

Eh, I don't mind discussing theories. Some of them are generally fun like the theory of who Alibaba will marry over on the Magi fandom, or the ones over on Ao no Exorcist. Or even the one about how Yana plans to end Kuroshitsuji, those are fun, but certain ones that get pressed down your throat, and kind of ruin the joy of reading, just aren't that fun to discuss. I'm sure you can understand that (have you ever crossed a theory that just makes you want to bang your head into a wall, or quit reading for awhile and wait until people are done discussing it. It's like the RPs over in the comment box in the commons room at Pottermore. Whenever you ask for help, or advise on other things, or even just trying to chat with another user, your comment gets buried under the roleplayers, and you end up missing the response too.. Ah, I'm rambling. I think you get the idea.)

Well, we are both all over the place, technically, so it's not really a great argument on either side, lol. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what Yana has plan, that's the best answer for both arguments in this case.

(You have to admit, the facebook commenters were quite fun to read, though. Now, if only that pairing war on the Guest side (at Mangahere) would stop. Some idiotic LizziexCiel shippers lashed out at the Sebiel shippers calling them sick and to check into a mental hospital. As much as I enjoy pairing discussions, a war over them is nothing but troublesome.)

Hmmm...saw the bit about your comment on Loose translations, so when you try to translate things literally from one language to another, it does not always work. For instance, there is a town in my home country that translates into English as "Intestines" and another one that translates into "Eel Castle" which is not what these cites are actually called. LOL And there are so may words that have no direct translation or even close translations.

Yeah, Hanne is right.

Grammatical rules of the Asian languages are very different from the English. When you pour yourself in another language, your mind also switch to another way of thinking.

In this case, it's not "loosely translated", it's that in the japanese grammar the plurals/genders aren't stated unless specified in very specific cases (the -tachi in this case) and it works since the context usually make it obvious, so most of the time experienced translators will have no difficulty translating from japanese anyway. But if an author plays it well, he/she can manipulate this particularity of the language to make it really ambiguous.

Let's take french, because it's the language I know the most. "To make" and "to do" are two different words in English, but in French both mean "faire". With the context, it's really hard to be wrong, but you have to understand the context and the action it's attached to.

Also, genders in French are used everywhere. Une table, a table, un avion, an airplane. So "table" is feminine and "airplane" is masculine. You can play with words with that if you want to, and it's definetively not going to translate well into English. And if you want to name an object, well it's a reflex to give a masculine name to an object with which this gender is associated.

When you write, you also basically have to make your gender obvious by adding an "e" to the second verb (don't remember how it's called x)) to when you're a girl to not add one when you're a guy:
Je suis intéressée(f)/intéressé(m)
I am interested (ambiguous)
It's the same with professions (well, they're nouns):
Teacher
Enseignante(f)/Enseignant(m)
Even though it's ambiguous in English, with the right context you can interpret it well.

Does it make any sense to you? Grammar differences is a difficult thing to understand, I guess you'd have to get really familiar to anoher language to fully understand that, but I wanted to try :)

I'm not even sure my post was even related now that I read yours again, oh well take what you want from it.

Hm, either translators could be wrong, usually yes, it would be that way, but in this instance the -tachi is there. Bah, as long as you don't swear it was singular, I guess I'll stop repeating that since you do not seem to understand it. I guess it's normal, Japanese is just really confusing to you, if someone was talking about a language I didn't understand at least the basics I would probably have my doubts too.

But really, let's see a comparison of both litteral and loose Japanese to English translations:

Here's a japanese sentence:
襖のえは蕪村の筆である。黒い柳を濃く薄く、遠近とかいて、寒そうな魚夫が笠をかたぶけて土手の上を通る。

Litteral translation:
The painting on my fusuma is the pen of Buson. Black Yanagi painted thick and faint, over here–over there. A cold looking fisherman tilts his umbrella and passes above the bank of the river

Loose translation:
Buson painted the mural on my sliding paper door, black Yanagi ceders painted here and there–both bold and faint-a lonely fisherman battling the cold, unfurling his umbrella as he ascends the river bank.

The litteral translation just looks horrible and clunky :P. Kudos for the translators to be able to work with a language that works with the subject-object-verb sentence structure, but is also more flexible than English to the point that you can even casually omitt words. And let's not even talk about the many words that have no direct translations at all.

So really, which is right or wrong, well I've got my mind set, you've got yours set too, and quite frankly we're probably both somewhat having wishful thinkings on top of that on how it's going to be. So trying to make the other believe in either would be getting us nowhere anyway, nobody have definitive proofs, so what the heck ;)

Nah, I get what you mean. Words can be different than what we think they are. It's hard to get it exact. For example, take English. For the US, we have the word " French fries", but in the UK they call them "chips". The "flashlight" is a "torch". "Police" "Bobbies" (I think). Yeah, no wonder it's hard to translate into English sometimes.

Most of those are correct, but unless it's done in private, we english also call "bobbies" police. That may just be a dialect thing though. All in all, translators actually have a really hard time and I am very grateful that they do it anyway.